The Kinesis blockchain

AmaLlulLa · Jan 21, 2023

Thanks. That explains the exaggerated number of redemptions I would expect, ( relative to my physical example ) ,,, the Market Maker.... And as I've gathered here, (and other places of late haha,) there are no associated fees with those transactions. And when you say Minter purchases via the mint, you mean Market Maker?
Next question then, are these redemptions done on the blockchain, and publicly verifiable?

Troglodytes · Jan 21, 2023

AmaLlulLa said:
Next question then, are these redemptions done on the blockchain, and publicly verifiable?

All minting and redemption is on blockchain and therefore publicly verifiable. You can see your own minting and redemptions too in the Explorer (or independent 3rd party tools if you want to check it with something not controlled by Kinesis).

AmaLlulLa · Jan 21, 2023

Troglodytes said:
All minting and redemption is on blockchain and therefore publicly verifiable. You can see your own minting and redemptions too in the Explorer (or independent 3rd party tools if you want to check it with something not controlled by Kinesis).

Thanks for the reply Troglodytes, and for the help in my first step, basic understandings of Blockchain mechanics. I get lost easily, despite Uchiki's best patient efforts, in the nomenclature used with Kinesis, and the process flow of the blockchain "proofs" To see these redemptions, which transaction Type should I look for? Or is it not as simple as that.? Is there a step by step process for this discovery? I see in the new tool on the Chain Explorer redemptions defined as " The sum of all transfer amounts from Hot wallet to Emission or Root account " . If they have not already, Perhaps it would be of benefit for Kinesis to develop an entry level schematic of the blockchain proofs of information flow to help in understanding as well. Fine to keep it simple for me, Until my teens all pictures I saw were on paper and black and white, I'm used to simplicity.

Derek · Jan 21, 2023

AmaLlulLa said:
If they have not already, Perhaps it would be of benefit for Kinesis to develop an entry level schematic of the blockchain proofs of information flow to help in understanding as well. Fine to keep it simple for me

That doesn't sound like a terrible idea, but again: who else does this?

Do you, for instance, have a solid understanding of the details of how your "money" is treated behind the scenes when you deposit it in your bank? Or are you like most who get their funds electronically deposited, and spend it on debit cards, via checks, ACH payments, and very occasionally withdrawing it from ATMs? How liquid is your bank? Were your funds used to leverage up 15x bets in the carry trade that are now hugely under water after the Fed started raising rates and really messed up basic assumptions about international bond markets? We're still at a 0% reserve ratio in the US, right? How exposed to any losses is your bank if all assets are loaned out or levered up in derivative trades? We're still not marking mortgage bonds to market post 2009, right? Would your bank remain solvent if they suddenly had to?

Are you asking these questions about your primary financial institution?

As an outside observer there seems to be a trap with all this transparency stuff. The more you disclose, the more you're asked to disclose, and the more questions are raised, and it seems to be some sort of loop where the demands and requests get to the point that you're asked to do more for your users than they ask of competing services.

Troglodytes · Jan 21, 2023

AmaLlulLa said:
To see these redemptions, which transaction Type should I look for? Or is it not as simple as that.?

It is not complicated. A redemption shows up as a transfer to the mint. For KAU that is a transfer to GDIENNQ3BXCTB74ZYCQAGXCY7KTGFBZGHRMUVF3ZLIW6SMAZIGX2JCCS

For KAG it is a transfer to GCGTMT2X6NUV6ABEOAOSDI2YQ7FXQOQYKYA7KVZQ5ID67GQU3C6AIUGU

Minting is the opposite action, i.e. a transfer from these addresses. So for example: Here below you see a transfer from GDIE...JCCS (the Mint) to GBUB...VCZS (the KMS hot wallet). GBA...GKLZ is the user doing it. He is minting 6,500 KAU to his KMS account

And below you see a redemption. It is a transfer of 1,000 KAU from the KMS hot wallet back to the Mint

AmaLlulLa · Jan 21, 2023

Troglodytes said:
It is not complicated. A redemption shows up as a transfer to the mint. For KAU that is a transfer to GDIENNQ3BXCTB74ZYCQAGXCY7KTGFBZGHRMUVF3ZLIW6SMAZIGX2JCCS

For KAG it is a transfer to GCGTMT2X6NUV6ABEOAOSDI2YQ7FXQOQYKYA7KVZQ5ID67GQU3C6AIUGU

Minting is the opposite action, i.e. a transfer from these addresses. So for example: Here below you see a transfer from GDIE...JCCS (the Mint) to GBUB...VCZS (the KMS hot wallet). GBA...GKLZ is the user doing it. He is minting 6,500 KAU to his KMS account

View attachment 1471

And below you see a redemption. It is a transfer of 1,000 KAU from the KMS hot wallet back to the Mint

View attachment 1472

Very helpful. Thank you

AmaLlulLa · Jan 21, 2023

Derek said:
That doesn't sound like a terrible idea, but again: who else does this?

Do you, for instance, have a solid understanding of the details of how your "money" is treated behind the scenes when you deposit it in your bank? Or are you like most who get their funds electronically deposited, and spend it on debit cards, via checks, ACH payments, and very occasionally withdrawing it from ATMs? How liquid is your bank? Were your funds used to leverage up 15x bets in the carry trade that are now hugely under water after the Fed started raising rates and really messed up basic assumptions about international bond markets? We're still at a 0% reserve ratio in the US, right? How exposed to any losses is your bank if all assets are loaned out or levered up in derivative trades? We're still not marking mortgage bonds to market post 2009, right? Would your bank remain solvent if they suddenly had to?

Are you asking these questions about your primary financial institution?

As an outside observer there seems to be a trap with all this transparency stuff. The more you disclose, the more you're asked to disclose, and the more questions are raised, and it seems to be some sort of loop where the demands and requests get to the point that you're asked to do more for your users than they ask of competing services.

God laughs at men who lament the effects whose causes they cherish"
!!!! Do I not have THE ONE chuckling !!!!

Most will be glad to know I plan to severely limit my Lifecoins spent on social media, particularly regarding this project, and indeed I'm pulling in my $ Investments as well.
That said Derek, I will detail a response to you as administrator, out of Respect to you for creating this forum, whatever your compensation may be. However the "Official" arrangement is detailed, I remember you suggesting it as a better platform than the flat Tg one. And you've been fair if not unbiased as a moderator. Sincerely Thank you for that, ,FWIW.

1.That doesn't sound like a terrible idea, but again: who else does this?
For positive inference, Pick any DEX asset backed chain.
For negative inference, pick any of the recently imploded and imploding CEX
Mind you, Kinesis, and all these currently all operate in an as un-regulated environment as the video games you may play online, depositing your "money" with the game to purchase "powers" or "add ons to characters" or what not within the game. I'm old, and limit my gameplay to solitaire on flights. Please correct me if I'm wrong. This is pertinent to question two.

2...Do you, for instance, have a solid understanding of the details of how your "money" is treated behind the scenes when you deposit it in your bank?
Technically,I will say, not really. I rely on some imperfect but stringent regulatory authorities for assurances of how my fiat is treated in the nine "Banks" and two Credit Unions i utilize.

3.... Or are you like most who get their funds electronically deposited, and spend it on debit cards, via checks, ACH payments, and very occasionally withdrawing it from ATMs?
I get electronic deposits, cash, and checks from my remaining real estate hodings, Spend a vast majority of fiat with credit cards when possible, getting 2% of the transaction returned, and yes ATM's only when traveling, (low fees &good exchange rates if I'm careful)

4. How liquid is your bank?
For my main workhorse local bank and credit union, quite. Have direct access to the CEO of each. Not stoked or sure about the Megas like Wells Fargo, but limit my exposure to these AMAP

5. Were your funds used to leverage up 15x bets in the carry trade that are now hugely under water after the Fed started raising rates and really messed up basic assumptions about international bond markets?
No, I haven't checked on the leverage rate for any of them honestly. I do hope they have "leveraged" the money in mortages. Have you ever watched "It's a Wonderful Life?" For the majority of my funds placements, I have No concerns really about international bond market.(though thanks for the reminder, I do need to relook at an old fund@ my Fidelty,account)

6..... We're still at a 0% reserve ratio in the US, right? How exposed to any losses is your bank if all assets are loaned out or levered up in derivative trades? We're still not marking mortgage bonds to market post 2009, right? Would your bank remain solvent if they suddenly had to?
All this is esoteric to me, honestly. I've got most of my pure liquidity ( my term ) in laddered Treasury direct billss, ranging from 4.376 %yield , up to memory correct 9.346%. These are laddered from 4 weeks, up to 26 week. Interesting note, did you know there is an Inversion yield between the 52 week (4.71%) note and the 26 week (4.865%).? (Similar to the 2yr/10yr benchmark)

7..... Are you asking these questions about your primary financial institution?
Mixed bag here, but well. No. Do Not have the need to.

8....As an outside observer there seems to be a trap with all this transparency stuff. The more you disclose, the more you're asked to disclose, and the more questions are raised, and it seems to be some sort of loop where the demands and requests get to the point that you're asked to do more for your users than they ask of competing services.
I will suggest to you to be careful of letting your enthusiasm for what you want a project to be, cloud your judgement of what the project truly is. .
My primary reason for involvement with Kinesis was, ironically, a safehaven from the Traditional Fiat system from lessons learned in 2008..The Assurances of Precious Metals, fused with (what Little I knew, and know) of blockchain technology. The potential remains as fantastic as ever. However, My Trust in the system, both in the blockchain, the assurances of title of the PM's, and the liquidity of whatever the Multi hydra haded business structure is, has faltered....... 388
You, and others, use the word Banking with Kinesis ( as a conduit for moving money) as it is an equivalent to traditional Banking (as a conduit for moving fiat/money) .
I'll leave with this. Go there at your own peril. I'm , in large part, Out.

Derek · Jan 22, 2023

AmaLlulLa said:
Mind you, Kinesis, and all these currently all operate in an as un-regulated environment as the video games you may play online,

You're asserting that Kinesis is completely unregulated. I believe you are incorrect in that assertion.

It's not regulated by the FDIC as it's not a US Bank - maybe that's all you need? Are there any other regulatory authorities you trust other than the FDIC?

AmaLlulLa said:
Mixed bag here, but well. No. Do Not have the need to.

So you use "9 banks and 2 credit unions," and rely on FDIC regulators to secure your assets in those institutions. Fair enough, most do and don't do any due diligence beyond that.

But you want Kinesis, which is...

less established
working on something brand new in the world
a much more ambitious project than a traditional bank
trying to execute in most of the world simultaneously
likely has fewer resources than many of those banks

...to provide more transparency than any of those entities. And when you get information you don't understand you want them to provide tutorials and walk you through it.

It just seems like you're using two standards here: there's one standard for Kinesis, and another standard for the dozen other financial entities you use. And that really confuses me.

AmaLlulLa said:
I will suggest to you to be careful of letting your enthusiasm for what you want a project to be, cloud your judgement of what the project truly is. .

All I'd like to see is some consistency here. That's all - as far as I can tell Kinesis is the most transparent organization in this space, and as a reaction to that transparency you say "give me more," or "you've given me too much, and I don't understand it, so please delegate a Kinesis employee to walk me through it."

Maybe that's reasonable. It just seems there's a higher burden on the small upstart company trying to do everything right than there is on the rapscallions of the industry (which let them get away with so much) or on the established entities which, let's be honest, don't always make rational decisions with their client money. I think a significant number of the large commercial banks are, on paper, if required to mark their assets to market, insolvent. Especially now that the carry trade in bonds has collapsed, but participants have not yet been forced to account for the revaluations of the bonds involved.

But they get a pass.

As to my enthusiasm for this project: yes, I'm quite enthusiastic. But I trust that that metal is there (because there are third-party physical audits), and I trust that that metal matches the amount of metal on the blockchain (because we've looked). I trust that Kinesis is a bailee because they say they are, and if that's a lie it's very actionable should things go sideways.

I trust that KAU and KAG I own can be turned into physical metal and delivered, or converted at close to market rates and wired to me. I know that the KVT I own are speculative and depend on Kinesis delivering big partnerships in a way that, to date, they haven't proven they can.

Kinesis isn't my local branch of Wells Fargo - I'll give you that. But I accept what it is, and if I hadn't I wouldn't have signed up and transferred money in.

AmaLlulLa said:
However, My Trust in the system, both in the blockchain, the assurances of title of the PM's, and the liquidity of whatever the Multi hydra haded business structure is, has faltered....... 388

You didn't actually need to tell me that - it's been pretty clear.

But I'm getting the feeling that there's not much that can be done to restore your trust in this system at this point.

You know the metal is in the vault. You know (or mostly know) that the metal on the vaults matches what's on the blockchain. You're not quite sure how all this blockchain stuff ties together and feeds the calculations, but it's pretty clear at this point that the numbers match. And as a result you still don't trust the blockchain.

You've read the agreements on the Kinesis web site that say metal is titled to the holders, but now you're not sure that you believe them.

You're not sure Kinesis can be trusted because they've got a different entity for each different regulatory regime where they're trying to do business, while companies like Citigroup have...hundreds of sub-companies and that's fine?

I don't understand the apparent cognitive dissonance.

This isn't meant as an attack. But I'm not sure what Kinesis can say or do to provide you the assurances and comfort you're looking for.

AmaLlulLa · Jan 22, 2023

Derek said:
You're asserting that Kinesis is completely unregulated. I believe you are incorrect in that assertion.

It's not regulated by the FDIC as it's not a US Bank - maybe that's all you need? Are there any other regulatory authorities you trust other than the FDIC?

So you use "9 banks and 2 credit unions," and rely on FDIC regulators to secure your assets in those institutions. Fair enough, most do and don't do any due diligence beyond that.

But you want Kinesis, which is...

less established

working on something brand new in the world

a much more ambitious project than a traditional bank

trying to execute in most of the world simultaneously

likely has fewer resources than many of those banks

...to provide more transparency than any of those entities. And when you get information you don't understand you want them to provide tutorials and walk you through it.

It just seems like you're using two standards here: there's one standard for Kinesis, and another standard for the dozen other financial entities you use. And that really confuses me.

All I'd like to see is some consistency here. That's all - as far as I can tell Kinesis is the most transparent organization in this space, and as a reaction to that transparency you say "give me more," or "you've given me too much, and I don't understand it, so please delegate a Kinesis employee to walk me through it."

Maybe that's reasonable. It just seems there's a higher burden on the small upstart company trying to do everything right than there is on the rapscallions of the industry (which let them get away with so much) or on the established entities which, let's be honest, don't always make rational decisions with their client money. I think a significant number of the large commercial banks are, on paper, if required to mark their assets to market, insolvent. Especially now that the carry trade in bonds has collapsed, but participants have not yet been forced to account for the revaluations of the bonds involved.

But they get a pass.

As to my enthusiasm for this project: yes, I'm quite enthusiastic. But I trust that that metal is there (because there are third-party physical audits), and I trust that that metal matches the amount of metal on the blockchain (because we've looked). I trust that Kinesis is a bailee because they say they are, and if that's a lie it's very actionable should things go sideways.

I trust that KAU and KAG I own can be turned into physical metal and delivered, or converted at close to market rates and wired to me. I know that the KVT I own are speculative and depend on Kinesis delivering big partnerships in a way that, to date, they haven't proven they can.

Kinesis isn't my local branch of Wells Fargo - I'll give you that. But I accept what it is, and if I hadn't I wouldn't have signed up and transferred money in.

You didn't actually need to tell me that - it's been pretty clear.

But I'm getting the feeling that there's not much that can be done to restore your trust in this system at this point.

You know the metal is in the vault. You know (or mostly know) that the metal on the vaults matches what's on the blockchain. You're not quite sure how all this blockchain stuff ties together and feeds the calculations, but it's pretty clear at this point that the numbers match. And as a result you still don't trust the blockchain.

You've read the agreements on the Kinesis web site that say metal is titled to the holders, but now you're not sure that you believe them.

You're not sure Kinesis can be trusted because they've got a different entity for each different regulatory regime where they're trying to do business, while companies like Citigroup have...hundreds of sub-companies and that's fine?

I don't understand the apparent cognitive dissonance.

This isn't meant as an attack. But I'm not sure what Kinesis can say or do to provide you the assurances and comfort you're looking for.

Derek,
For you , and only a few more on this board will I continue to engage a bit more.
One by one:
1. You're asserting that Kinesis is completely unregulated. I believe you are incorrect in that assertion.
Reference your DD beliefs, I'd love to be further informed.
2. It's not regulated by the FDIC as it's not a US Bank - maybe that's all you need? Are there any other regulatory authorities you trust other than the FDIC?.....So you use "9 banks and 2 credit unions," and rely on FDIC regulators to secure your assets in those institutions. Fair enough, most do and don't do any due diligence beyond that.
Not sure exactly where to start or go here.
In the US there multiple types of traditional Banks that operate in the US
Many are regulated by Office of the Comptroller of the Currency, overseen by the FDIC up to 500K insurance. Provides a lot of Oversight, and OPEN BOOKS on a regular basis.
The Credit Unions are regulated by the National Credit Union association , again insured up to 500K default insurance , offered again because of a lot of Oversight, and OPEN BOOKS on a regular basis.
Is this absolute assurance ?No Hence in large why I have outlined my hedge plan to you in case of the 2008 repeat.
In reference to this International Corporates Hydra (Kinesis), we are investing in, I have No Idea of the the Legal Lawful structure ,( been asking for answers well over a year), Much less has anyone seen a financial audit. How is one to know how the funds are managed or handled? Have you piad more than cursory attention to FTX Or the other implosions? How do we know that millions of dollars are not shuffled between companies as in those instances? 388
3.But you want Kinesis, which is...
less established
working on something brand new in the world
a much more ambitious project than a traditional bank
trying to execute in most of the world simultaneously
likely has fewer resources than many of those banks
...to provide more transparency than any of those entities.
More transparency? Seriously?
4.And when you get information you don't understand you want them to provide tutorials and walk you through it.
Yes members of the boards have been gracious with their time
5.It just seems like you're using two standards here: there's one standard for Kinesis, and another standard for the dozen other financial entities you use. And that really confuses me.
The absurdity of this statement, and the one below, is Breathtaking

6.I will suggest to you to be careful of letting your enthusiasm for what you want a project to be, cloud your judgement of what the project truly is. .
All I'd like to see is some consistency here. That's all - as far as I can tell Kinesis is the most transparent organization in this space, and as a reaction to that transparency you say "give me more," or "you've given me too much, and I don't understand it, so please delegate a Kinesis employee to walk me through it."
Maybe that's reasonable. It just seems there's a higher burden on the small upstart company trying to do everything right than there is on the rapscallions of the industry (which let them get away with so much) or on the established entities which, let's be honest, don't always make rational decisions with their client money. I think a significant number of the large commercial banks are, on paper, if required to mark their assets to market, insolvent. Especially now that the carry trade in bonds has collapsed, but participants have not yet been forced to account for the revaluations of the bonds involved.

Esoteric speculation.

7.But they get a pass.
As to my enthusiasm for this project: yes, I'm quite enthusiastic. But I trust that that metal is there (because there are third-party physical audits), and I trust that that metal matches the amount of metal on the blockchain (because we've looked). I trust that Kinesis is a bailee because they say they are, and if that's a lie it's very actionable should things go sideways.

Beleive what you will, it's whole of the the law as it is here

8. I trust that KAU and KAG I own can be turned into physical metal and delivered, or converted at close to market rates and wired to me. I know that the KVT I own are speculative and depend on Kinesis delivering big partnerships in a way that, to date, they haven't proven they can.
Kinesis isn't my local branch of Wells Fargo - I'll give you that. But I accept what it is, and if I hadn't I wouldn't have signed up and transferred money in.
"AmaLlulLa said:
However, My Trust in the system, both in the blockchain, the assurances of title of the PM's, and the liquidity of whatever the Multi hydra headed business structure is, has faltered....... 388
You didn't actually need to tell me that - it's been pretty clear.

I'm trying, but failing I'm sure

9. But I'm getting the feeling that there's not much that can be done to restore your trust in this system at this point.
You know the metal is in the vault.

I don't know that. The last non-delivered as promised audit had a third of it attested by transit companies in Turkey. I may of even seen some of it in the back of Jim Forsythes car for all I know, because I can't get a answer if The Bullion Stores Inventory is included in the audit. And I am still waiting for the promised explanation from the CEO for the defeciencies in the Audit (sorry, Trustable companies don't respond with posts on ReddIt. Hard Fail) So no Derek, I don't know, and I Do Not Trust.

10. You know (or mostly know) that the metal on the vaults matches what's on the blockchain.
You're not quite sure how all this blockchain stuff ties together and feeds the calculations, but it's pretty clear at this point that the numbers match.
And as a result you still don't trust the blockchain.

My ignorance of the technicalities of Blockchain, and Kinesis's utilization of this specific blockchain is immense. My Naïve assumption engaging the Kinesis project, was that with Any blockchain application,( Particularly this one because kinesis says so), there would be a relatively doable way for a non expert to see the open proof of it's integrity, and of experts to mathematically verify it with close inspection. That's the WHOLE POINT of BlockChain technology as I Understand it. Frankly, I was startled when an Obvious fact was pointed out: These audits verified By Bureau Veritas, confirmed the presence of the metals (over three days and ignoring the 1/3 held by transit companies FWIW) , BUT did not "confirm" the Token circulation. That was done by the CEO, and unless I missed it, we are still waiting for that proof of verification on the blockchain work, and mechanism..... If I've missed the analysis of that allegation, please point me there.
So yeah, not quite sure if it's my ignornace, or the facts presented above, but yeah, My trust is lacking.

11. You've read the agreements on the Kinesis web site that say metal is titled to the holders, but now you're not sure that you believe them.
You're not sure Kinesis can be trusted because they've got a different entity for each different regulatory regime where they're trying to do business, while companies like Citigroup have...hundreds of sub-companies and that's fine?

I have read, and re-read, the TOS. Without getting sidetracked into other issues (such as the fiat/Crypto CEX components of Kinesis) Yes you're on track here. Because I have no Idea of the Legal/Lawfull structure of the Business, nor the specifics of the Baille/Bailor agreement that the web site says titles to the holders.

Here's a Due Deligance exercise I would suggest for you, and could prove a valuable contingency plan.
Imagine if you will, you have thousands of Kau, thousands of Kag, Thousands of Fiat invested in KMS
( maybe you do), and to your large surprise when logging onto KMS you get a 404, you find ABX is faced with insolvency, with tens of millions of dollars of debt, with no rescue available. What is the First thing you will do? How are you going to recover your investments? What is your path,what will be your recourse?...... 388

12 I don't understand the apparent cognitive dissonance.

The world is filled with it, but I have none here.

13. This isn't meant as an attack.
Thanks, I know that. We have a verge in opinion, that's all. I appreciate your enthusiasm and many insights. (Not so much your choice of college ball teams)

14.But I'm not sure what Kinesis can say or do to provide you the assurances and comfort you're looking for.

I'm not either. I hold slim hope, but will watch and wait and see what gets delivered. My Participation in the future is not completely out of question...

Take care, I'm out..

sixgun · Jan 22, 2023

Crikey - first there was Sachmo / Crypto Investigator and now AmaLlulLa / AmaQuella. i think i will have to have a lie down for a bit. Maybe tee up the duo for a live and public AMA. What fun.

AlM · Jan 22, 2023

Probably just a coincidence of names...

Ama Llulla - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

AlM · Jan 22, 2023

An Ask Me Anything session serves no useful purpose, in my mind, for Kinesis and could be used to bait 'n' switch topics and to create obfuscation.

Focusing on delivering great, sound money solutions will enable Kinesis to help more people in dire need around the world than any other organisation.

Over the decades, and especially in finance, I've chanced across about three genuinely honest groups who really want to help other people. The frustrating thing is that many outsiders view things through their own eyes only and impute nefarious intent where none exists.

If you "know" that what you're doing is honest and above board, there's no need to prove it and there's a limit to what can be disclosed for competitive reasons. It may be that only a genuine desire for understanding motivates people, but limits exist nonetheless.

AlM · Jan 22, 2023

Yutaka said:
I agree with everything I can understand of what you say Derek, just not with this one remark.
There is a fundamental difference between the legacy banking system and kinesis, so a different treatment of the two re due diligence is normal, there is nothing confusing about it: the banking system for him me and you has at a whole worked all these years. We were born in it, we grew up in it, we saw our community confidently using it, it has more or less successfully served our everyday needs of using money.

Trust is much more a thing of usage and much less of documents, theories, proofs and technology. It’s hard to admit it only because we like to think of ourselves as smart guys who follow Rationality.
There is no double standard in putting a monetary system that hasn’t taken off yet under more scrutiny than a system you were born into and that on the whole has worked for you until today.

That said
The best way for kinesis to answer those transparency requests and to gain trust is not to present documents and proofs because as you say that will only lead to further transparency requests: show me the proof of the proof of the proof...

The more the KMS and its track record get built up, usage of and participation in it expand... the more those transparency requests will be put in their right place and serve the system, as Thomas Coughlin pointed out. Transparency requests do have namely a point, which although is not that of justifying our trust in the KMS.

Great, so no more questions, no more explanations and we just let the system prove itself, growing our referrals, should we so choose.

Suits me and releases Kinesis to focus on doing what it does best.

End of thread.

Rhyno · Jan 22, 2023

AmaLlulLa said:
Derek,
For you , and only a few more on this board will I continue to engage a bit more.
One by one:
1. You're asserting that Kinesis is completely unregulated. I believe you are incorrect in that assertion.
Reference your DD beliefs, I'd love to be further informed.
2. It's not regulated by the FDIC as it's not a US Bank - maybe that's all you need? Are there any other regulatory authorities you trust other than the FDIC?.....So you use "9 banks and 2 credit unions," and rely on FDIC regulators to secure your assets in those institutions. Fair enough, most do and don't do any due diligence beyond that.
Not sure exactly where to start or go here.
In the US there multiple types of traditional Banks that operate in the US
Many are regulated by Office of the Comptroller of the Currency, overseen by the FDIC up to 500K insurance. Provides a lot of Oversight, and OPEN BOOKS on a regular basis.
The Credit Unions are regulated by the National Credit Union association , again insured up to 500K default insurance , offered again because of a lot of Oversight, and OPEN BOOKS on a regular basis.
Is this absolute assurance ?No Hence in large why I have outlined my hedge plan to you in case of the 2008 repeat.
In reference to this International Corporates Hydra (Kinesis), we are investing in, I have No Idea of the the Legal Lawful structure ,( been asking for answers well over a year), Much less has anyone seen a financial audit. How is one to know how the funds are managed or handled? Have you piad more than cursory attention to FTX Or the other implosions? How do we know that millions of dollars are not shuffled between companies as in those instances? 388
3.But you want Kinesis, which is...
less established
working on something brand new in the world
a much more ambitious project than a traditional bank
trying to execute in most of the world simultaneously
likely has fewer resources than many of those banks
...to provide more transparency than any of those entities.
More transparency? Seriously?
4.And when you get information you don't understand you want them to provide tutorials and walk you through it.
Yes members of the boards have been gracious with their time
5.It just seems like you're using two standards here: there's one standard for Kinesis, and another standard for the dozen other financial entities you use. And that really confuses me.
The absurdity of this statement, and the one below, is Breathtaking

6.I will suggest to you to be careful of letting your enthusiasm for what you want a project to be, cloud your judgement of what the project truly is. .
All I'd like to see is some consistency here. That's all - as far as I can tell Kinesis is the most transparent organization in this space, and as a reaction to that transparency you say "give me more," or "you've given me too much, and I don't understand it, so please delegate a Kinesis employee to walk me through it."
Maybe that's reasonable. It just seems there's a higher burden on the small upstart company trying to do everything right than there is on the rapscallions of the industry (which let them get away with so much) or on the established entities which, let's be honest, don't always make rational decisions with their client money. I think a significant number of the large commercial banks are, on paper, if required to mark their assets to market, insolvent. Especially now that the carry trade in bonds has collapsed, but participants have not yet been forced to account for the revaluations of the bonds involved.

Esoteric speculation.

7.But they get a pass.
As to my enthusiasm for this project: yes, I'm quite enthusiastic. But I trust that that metal is there (because there are third-party physical audits), and I trust that that metal matches the amount of metal on the blockchain (because we've looked). I trust that Kinesis is a bailee because they say they are, and if that's a lie it's very actionable should things go sideways.

Beleive what you will, it's whole of the the law as it is here

8. I trust that KAU and KAG I own can be turned into physical metal and delivered, or converted at close to market rates and wired to me. I know that the KVT I own are speculative and depend on Kinesis delivering big partnerships in a way that, to date, they haven't proven they can.
Kinesis isn't my local branch of Wells Fargo - I'll give you that. But I accept what it is, and if I hadn't I wouldn't have signed up and transferred money in.
"AmaLlulLa said:
However, My Trust in the system, both in the blockchain, the assurances of title of the PM's, and the liquidity of whatever the Multi hydra headed business structure is, has faltered....... 388
You didn't actually need to tell me that - it's been pretty clear.

I'm trying, but failing I'm sure

9. But I'm getting the feeling that there's not much that can be done to restore your trust in this system at this point.
You know the metal is in the vault.

I don't know that. The last non-delivered as promised audit had a third of it attested by transit companies in Turkey. I may of even seen some of it in the back of Jim Forsythes car for all I know, because I can't get a answer if The Bullion Stores Inventory is included in the audit. And I am still waiting for the promised explanation from the CEO for the defeciencies in the Audit (sorry, Trustable companies don't respond with posts on ReddIt. Hard Fail) So no Derek, I don't know, and I Do Not Trust.

10. You know (or mostly know) that the metal on the vaults matches what's on the blockchain.
You're not quite sure how all this blockchain stuff ties together and feeds the calculations, but it's pretty clear at this point that the numbers match.
And as a result you still don't trust the blockchain.

My ignorance of the technicalities of Blockchain, and Kinesis's utilization of this specific blockchain is immense. My Naïve assumption engaging the Kinesis project, was that with Any blockchain application,( Particularly this one because kinesis says so), there would be a relatively doable way for a non expert to see the open proof of it's integrity, and of experts to mathematically verify it with close inspection. That's the WHOLE POINT of BlockChain technology as I Understand it. Frankly, I was startled when an Obvious fact was pointed out: These audits verified By Bureau Veritas, confirmed the presence of the metals (over three days and ignoring the 1/3 held by transit companies FWIW) , BUT did not "confirm" the Token circulation. That was done by the CEO, and unless I missed it, we are still waiting for that proof of verification on the blockchain work, and mechanism..... If I've missed the analysis of that allegation, please point me there.
So yeah, not quite sure if it's my ignornace, or the facts presented above, but yeah, My trust is lacking.

11. You've read the agreements on the Kinesis web site that say metal is titled to the holders, but now you're not sure that you believe them.
You're not sure Kinesis can be trusted because they've got a different entity for each different regulatory regime where they're trying to do business, while companies like Citigroup have...hundreds of sub-companies and that's fine?

I have read, and re-read, the TOS. Without getting sidetracked into other issues (such as the fiat/Crypto CEX components of Kinesis) Yes you're on track here. Because I have no Idea of the Legal/Lawfull structure of the Business, nor the specifics of the Baille/Bailor agreement that the web site says titles to the holders.

Here's a Due Deligance exercise I would suggest for you, and could prove a valuable contingency plan.
Imagine if you will, you have thousands of Kau, thousands of Kag, Thousands of Fiat invested in KMS
( maybe you do), and to your large surprise when logging onto KMS you get a 404, you find ABX is faced with insolvency, with tens of millions of dollars of debt, with no rescue available. What is the First thing you will do? How are you going to recover your investments? What is your path,what will be your recourse?...... 388

12 I don't understand the apparent cognitive dissonance.

The world is filled with it, but I have none here.

13. This isn't meant as an attack.
Thanks, I know that. We have a verge in opinion, that's all. I appreciate your enthusiasm and many insights. (Not so much your choice of college ball teams)

14.But I'm not sure what Kinesis can say or do to provide you the assurances and comfort you're looking for.

I'm not either. I hold slim hope, but will watch and wait and see what gets delivered. My Participation in the future is not completely out of question...

Take care, I'm out..

Zooming out is important here; investors over time has had progressively more information to base their decision on. Hence the risk-benefit analysis changes.

At first there was just an idea/vision available, then when I got involved an exchange and no yields and now yields and an official Indonesian launch. If in 12 months the KVT yield/month is $15, they are trading and a couple other countries launch, there are more tools to verify the blockchain etc, it is fair to say that the risk is lower but the benefit will be as well since KVT will probably trade for over $3k

It is like this with all investments; none are risk free we all have intraparty and 3rd party risks to consider.

We all have different risk tolerances and requirements; they are very personalized. You should derisk to a level you are comfortable with while recognizing that you may lose out on some benefit. Totally reasonable.

It is not fair to Kinesis nor yourself to take questions and carry them forward to conclusions regarding character and truthfulness; there is a temptation to think an unanswered question means something nefarious is up. Just accept that they are not answered to your satisfaction at this time and make decisions accordingly.

AmaLlulLa · Jan 22, 2023

AlM said:
Probably just a coincidence of names...

Ama Llulla - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Hello Alex
Not a co-incidence
I spent some time in what is now Bolivia/Peru, an Amazing & Mind-blowing Place and People.
The Inca Imposed just three Laws upon their citizens, but Ruthlessly

Ama Suwa Do Not Steal
Ama Llulla Do Not Lie
Ama Quella Do Not be Lazy

I have to believe these are a Pretty good set of co-ordinates to go through life on this earth with everyone.

I know you understand my positions, and the greatest source of my Great Distrust

AmaLlulLa · Jan 22, 2023

Rhyno said:
Zooming out is important here; investors over time has had progressively more information to base their decision on. Hence the risk-benefit analysis changes.

At first there was just an idea/vision available, then when I got involved an exchange and no yields and now yields and an official Indonesian launch. If in 12 months the KVT yield/month is $15, they are trading and a couple other countries launch, there are more tools to verify the blockchain etc, it is fair to say that the risk is lower but the benefit will be as well since KVT will probably trade for over $3k

It is like this with all investments; none are risk free we all have intraparty and 3rd party risks to consider.

We all have different risk tolerances and requirements; they are very personalized. You should derisk to a level you are comfortable with while recognizing that you may lose out on some benefit. Totally reasonable.

It is not fair to Kinesis nor yourself to take questions and carry them forward to conclusions regarding character and truthfulness; there is a temptation to think an unanswered question means something nefarious is up. Just accept that they are not answered to your satisfaction at this time and make decisions accordingly.

Thanks for all your contributions, and insights Rhyno. Sincerely.
Too much to unpack here, what character conclusions have I made? Of all Ironies, I'm Very touchy on character accusations BTW.
I have accepted the answers are not forthcoming, I have come to my conclusions, and have largely made those decisions

Rhyno · Jan 22, 2023

AmaLlulLa said:
Thanks for all your contributions, and insights Rhyno. Sincerely.
Too much to unpack here, what character conclusions have I made? Of all Ironies, I'm Very touchy on character accusations BTW.
I have accepted the answers are not forthcoming, I have come to my conclusions, and have largely made those decisions

I’m not saying you have made any character accusations; I was saying some have done so in error when they don’t understand something or have a question asked that is yet to be answered.

I also really appreciate you defending my character on Twitter. You’re a good dude

AmaLlulLa · Jan 23, 2023

Yutaka said:
That said
The best way for kinesis to answer those transparency requests and to gain trust is not to present documents and proofs because as you say that will only lead to further transparency requests: show me the proof of the proof of the proof...

Absolutely ,Truly, Staggering Statement
I would Not be surprised in the least that your day job Involves either Marketing or Project Development Work at Pfizer or Moderna for mRNA "Treatment" modalities.
Had to see this one with my own eyes.

Dante Roman · Jan 23, 2023

Has the below section of the website been updated?

Re can I trust the circulation quantities displayed on the exchange, well it is either accurate, or the system is guessing correctly a figure that auditors only publish weeks after it is displayed publicly on the exchange.

sixgun · Jan 23, 2023

drifter said:
They're not even requests for transparency on any one particular topic, they just want the nitty gritty details of every aspect of Kinesis as it exists today. Nevermind the fact that no other company would operate under those conditions. If the bar for you to be satisfied with your speculation is knowing every last detail about whom you're working with then maybe you should just hold physical and eliminate the third party risk all together. That's a reasonable path forward if you accept 0 third party risk.

You have to accept some risk, and not expect a for profit company to divulge every last detail of their operation, nobody else does that, nobody else is willing to do that, that bar has never been the standard and Kinesis is not in anyway unscrupulous because it doesn't conform to some arbitrary standard of transparency. It's not even particularly untransparent, the KVT holders knew what they were getting into, everybodies metal is accounted for, yields are coming in and Kinesis continues to put in further controls to make sure that this is always the case.

This idea that Kinesis isn't transparent enough is a farce, unanswered questions are being treated as if something unscrupulous is happening which is just intellectually dishonest on it's face. This idea that we as investors are somehow entitled to every last detail is not based in reality.

Indeed. There are certain entities who want to piss on the bonfire. They are like a death at a birthday party, which ruins all the fun. i learnt from my days as a forum trench fighter there are some people who will give you the run around. They demand and demand and demand. You can never give enough. They don't really want the answers, they simply want you to waste your time and effort for their own amusement.
Kinesis and some more resourceful members of the community have been working in the background to make information more assessible. So in a strange way this has been useful. It is making Kinesis stronger.

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